This episode of the Your Recipe for Financial Success podcast was first published on 11th February 2021. You can listen again by heading to our Episodes page, or on your favourite podcast player.

Money and Relationships

Today we are joined by Guest Baker, Deb Morgan. Deb the REAL Relationships Expert, is a speaker, podcaster, coach and author. She knows a thing or two about the wrong relationships. She also knows what it takes to create strong, healthy and robust relationships.

So, we thought, who better to come on the podcast and chat all things money and relationships than Deb?

Money can be a bit of a taboo subject and whilst some banking adverts are encouraging us to talk about money, it can still be a bit of a tricky subject. Talking about money can be especially difficult if you are finding that your finances are all whipped up.

Deb often comes across couples who are suffering from a strain to their relationship because of money issues. Typically, unspoken about issues!

Here are Deb’s most important things to remember when dealing with money in your relationship:

  • Never under estimate your worth. Even if you don’t bring in as much money to the household you may be making other valuable contributions that you’ve never considered
  • The problem you are facing in your relationship is often only a symptom of a bigger issue. There is usually something more lurking in the background which you or your partner need to talk about
  • Our past and our history is part of our programming, it’s deep rooted within us. Quite often you won’t realise it has any impact but subliminally it is there and can become visible in ways you wouldn’t necessarily expect
  • Be honest with yourself as well as whoever you are in a relationship with
  • When both people in the relationship have different spending habits it’s important to have joint goals to work towards together, that you are both contributing to. Do your goals, objectives and dreams align?
  • A partner isn’t just there for financial support, they are also there for emotional support. Emotional support is often underestimated so talk – be open and honest!

Remember, you have to crack a few eggs to make a cake. A few difficult conversations to start with can lead to a much happier, healthier and robust relationship.

Rediscover the conversation

Emma Knights
Today I have Deb Morgan with me from Not A Rehearsal. We’re going to be delving into relationships, thank you so much for joining me Deb.


Deb Morgan 
You’re very welcome. Pleased to be here.


Emma Knights 
Thank you. So, if you don’t mind, can you tell us a little bit about you and who you are?


Deb Morgan
Well, I’m Deb Morgan, and I’m known as the real relationships expert. So it’d be no surprise, really, to deduce from that that I’m a relationships coach, and I work primarily with women.

But I also work with couples, usually over the age of 40, or perhaps having problems in their relationships. They want some help to create stronger, healthier relationships. Or they’re single, and they want some help to ensure they go into their next relationship and create a really strong, healthy relationship the next time. So that’s what I do.


Emma Knights
How did you get into doing what you do now?


Deb Morgan
Oh my goodness. How long have we got?!

Basically, it started with me. I have a background of abusive relationships unfortunately. My first and second marriages were both abusive, and then I entered into another relationship which was also abusive.

I got to a stage, through all of that, where I wanted to understand why this was happening and got to the point where I thought ‘well, the only common denominator here is me. What am I doing for those people to treat me in that way?’ I learned that it wasn’t my fault, but what it did was set me on the path to studying psychology.

I studied for a psychology degree with the Open University and I learned an awful lot around that and then sort of delving into the likes of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming). I understood that it was about their behaviours and their patterns that they had learned, usually as children. I’m not going to go into all the psychology of it, but I recognised then that, actually, if we could treat or train people and educate people to create strong, healthy and robust relationships, we could potentially reverse the prevalence of domestic abuse. As a massive massive mission it’s quite scary.

Initially I started working with survivors of domestic abuse, just to help them understand that there is life beyond abuse. You can create the life you want. I wrote a couple of books about it and what I found was because I was always focusing on domestic abuse and the bad stuff, it was having an adverse psychological and physiological effect on me as well. Although I was helping people it wasn’t doing me any good.

So I decided I needed to flip it on its head and thought, what’s it what’s the opposite of an abusive relationship? Well it’s a strong healthy robust relationship. By flipping it on its head I was then able to offer the same support, but in a far more positive way.

When you go into it with a more positive attitude the results are better because you’re not mired in victimhood. That’s a term I use about myself as, you know, keeping myself mired in victimhood here. I’m always going to feel like I’m the victim and that’s not healthy for anybody.

There are stages where we are all victims and that’s perfectly acceptable, but you don’t want to remain in that place for a significant length of time because that’s equally as damaging as staying in the relationship.

It was about putting all of that together. Then you’re wanting to coach people. I’d had a business a number of years ago and I’d seen the value of business coaches. Obviously I knew the value of coaches, I had a running coach when I learned to run and things like that. We go to diet companies and have diet coaches when we want to lose weight. So, I knew I wanted to coach, but I didn’t really understand, back then, about the concept of life coaches as they were quite new on the scene.

Over time I thought ‘right then I’m a life coach’, and that evolved into me. Focusing solely on relationships because all of the people I was working with wanted to know about relationships. That really was my area of expertise because I had that background in abusive relationships.

I then focused on relationships in my studies, and alongside, I’ve done some work within the sex industry too. I was able to look at relationships from every angle, literally and metaphorically, so that enables me to have a really good overview, from both male and female perspective of relationships. So that’s why I do what I do now.


Emma Knights 
Wow. You can tell just the way you speak about, you sound so passionate and enthusiastic. It’s so lovely to see.

I think probably having that, obviously, awful background, helps you to help so many other people in a way that maybe you didn’t have at the time.


Deb Morgan
I do recall going through various stages and getting to a point where I was at my absolute lowest. And, you know, it’s no surprise (anybody that follows me on social media will know) that I attempted to take my own life.

Fortunately, I didn’t succeed. But back then I saw that as a failure as well. I’ve had failure after failure, in marriages, relationships and my business, that I just thought ‘that was a whole load of rubbish’. But I got to a stage when my attempt at my own life had failed and thought, ‘right. I’ve obviously been unsuccessful for a reason, there are lessons to learn from this. If I can help just one other person, not to go through what I’ve been through, then it will have been worth it’.

That was a turning point for me and, you know, it wasn’t quite as clear as that. It wasn’t a flash of light or anything that brought me to that conclusion. It was after months, maybe years, of really thinking ‘what is going on? What can I do? Why is this happening?’ And I realised, actually, I need to help at least one other person.

Of course, what’s happened is by focusing on wanting to help others, I’ve been able to help so many more people, and for me that’s fantastic. Now it’s become almost a worldwide mission to reduce the prevalence of domestic abuse. It’s that one little seed that really just kept me going and gave me the motivation just to get up off the floor.


Emma Knights 
Wow, such an incredible story of your journey to how you’ve got to where you are today.


Deb Morgan 
Thank you.


Emma Knights 
So, being a relationship coach, you are the perfect person to help. Talk to us about relationships and how money can affect them. Before we get into the depths of that. I’m just intrigued. Do you have a first memory of money that you could share with us?


Deb Morgan 
Yes I do actually. My mom had been a building society manager. She’d started her career in the bank when she was I think 18 or 19. Those were the days where nothing was computerised, as you might imagine, and if her bank account was overdrawn even by a penny, it was an instant dismissal.

She was always very, very strict about money in and money out. I recall every Friday evening, after we’d had our evening meal, she would sit down when dishes were done and everyone was settled, it would normally be about seven o’clock, and she’d get out her notebook.

She wrote, what was basically profit and loss account for the house, all of the income, all of the outgoings. She would balance it every single week. And she knew exactly what was going where. As I got older I became more aware of her still doing that. And then ‘hang on a minute I’ve lost 15 pence’, or something similar it would be a small amount. She wouldn’t stop until she had found where every last penny was.

That of course was a hangover from her days in the bank. But that’s my recollection of her as I was growing up, every Friday evening, she would have to balance the books. So almost doing the housekeeping for the house.


Emma Knights 
Wow, that’s an amazing story.


Deb Morgan 
She still does it now and she’s in her mid 70s. I don’t think she does it every week now, but she does balance the books on a regular basis.


Emma Knights 
Is that something that rubbed off on you as well?


Deb Morgan 
Yes and no. It’s had bit of an adverse effect on me actually. Of course with now being able to look at it through the lens of psychology as well, I see it so differently, but I know back then I interpreted it as a way of keeping really tight control on your money.

I’d always been quite good with money. When I had a paper round and when I’d earn pocket money, I could do so much on so little. Then when I got my first job and my first salary. Oh my goodness, you know, there was more money than I’ve ever had at any one time! That led me down a path where having watched my mum be so tight with money, that’s the wrong word, but so aware of what she was spending and living within a budget.

I’d say things like ‘Mum, why don’t you buy that brand new coffee instead of that one?’ and she would say ‘because I’ve saved five pence on a jar’ and things like that. So whilst as an adult now I understand it, back then I thought, well this is just ridiculous just buy what you want if you’ve got the money there buy it.

For me, it turned into expensive shoes and really expensive cosmetics and skincare. And that was my downfall. Unfortunately I ended up with an awful lot of debt, and it’s kind of been the story of my life, if you like. I inferred earlier that I’d had a business before. Whilst there are lots and lots of reasons, that I’m not going to go into right now, the business became insolvent.

It was a very successful business that became insolvent almost overnight, due to some internal sabotage which I won’t expand on right now. I ended up having to go through personal bankruptcy. It was almost as if that whole thing caught up with me from my late teens, early 20s. Finally, it took bankruptcy for me to understand ‘Oh right, okay, I can’t just go out and have what I want, when I want’. And of course there’s far more to it than that but those really are the pivotal moments, if you like,


Emma Knights
Wow, fantastic.

I’m going to talk to you today about a few different areas. I started thinking about money and relationships, deciding what I can talk to you about. There are three areas that popped into my head about the impacts I can see money has on relationships, As an outsider that knows very little about relationships.

I just wondered if you could talk to me a little bit more about these three things that I think probably quite prevalent in lots of relationships.

So the first one is thinking about a couple where one is earning more than the other, and sometimes it can be considerably more. Particularly where the woman is the one that’s earning more, I’m interested, how you’ve seen whether that impacts relationships and the effects that that can have.


Deb Morgan 
Okay, that’s an interesting one because of course, whilst we all like to feel that we are with feminists and we’re all out there and we were okay with things as they are, the generational conditioning of the past is gone.

We can accept that we are all equals, or in some cases, women earn more. What I notice in relationships is that very often that still causes an issue. The issue is because of the generational societal conditioning of the previous generations. We have been brought up based on the values and beliefs of our parents. Who themselves were brought up full of values and beliefs of their parents and so on and so on.

Each generation creates their own set of values and beliefs, as well. So we ended up as adults creating a hybrid of values and beliefs that work with us, remaining sensitive to those of our parents, but actually creating our own identity. It’s very, very difficult for most people to really push away from the parents conditioning and their parents values and beliefs.

What will often happen if a woman is earning more than a man, though the couple might say they’re okay with it, is the underlying subconscious beliefs are creating a conflict. Very often you’ll find the male will say ‘well, you know, I don’t mind that she earns more than me, that’s absolutely fine’. But subconsciously he’s got what is usually it his father’s voice in the back of his head saying, ‘What’s wrong with you? Why can’t you earn the same as her?’ He’s getting the message that he’s a failure as a man.

Lots of men tell me they feel emasculated because we still have that very, very deep-rooted DNA if you like, genetic makeup that says men are the providers and women look after the family. We move away from it as much as we can as we develop, but very often we are still stuck in that mindset.

And so, the man will say, ‘I feel emasculated’ and the woman will say ‘well I don’t see what the problem is. I’m quite happy to buy him a car or to pay most of the bills and run the house.’ But because of the generational societal conditioning that we’ve been brought up with, the man struggles with it.

That creates tension in a relationship and very often they don’t even understand where it’s coming from. But it’s all the stuff in our past, all the stuff in our history, all of the programming. It is so deep rooted within our primitive brain that we don’t even know it’s there.

For the most part we go through life accepting all the advances in technology and in life and everything else, and it’s that subliminal stuff, that unconscious stuff that comes to the fore. Very often, that’s just a symptom of something that’s underlying. So whilst I have couples who have that problem where the woman earns considerably more, you can work through it but it takes a lot of hard work.

You can work through it but it’s understanding what’s going on subconsciously. That’s the tough bit because, of course, we don’t think about it. No one sits down with a cup of coffee and thinks ‘I wonder what’s going on in my subconscious at the moment about the situation I’m in.’ That stuff always comes out in different ways, and it’s about looking at the symptoms and understanding it.

Of course, when I have couples in that instance we work through a strategy that works for both of them. We find out what they need to feel more equal if you like, and likewise, what the female can do to make her partner feel more equal. I’m using a heterosexual couple in this example but it could equally be a same sex couple. It’s the same sort of work I do, where I perhaps have a male and female couple where traditionally the male is earning more than the female, although that’s a lot more common to deal with, it’s the same sort of strategy.


Emma Knights 
I see. So, do you say in some circumstances that actually talking about it can help the problem?


Deb Morgan 
Absolutely. Very often what we feel, particularly if you’re the partner who earns the lower amount whether you’re male or female, is that by saying something you sound ungrateful. As a partner who earns the lower amount of course you’re grateful that your partner is earning more and is able to perhaps look after the house or buy your car, whatever it is.

But what I’ve seen time and time again, is that the lower earning partner always somehow feels that they’re not quite good enough, because they’re not an equal. So, by talking through all of that we are helping them work out ways in which they feel they are an equal, a lot of it might come down to just the matter of how much housework they do.

Be it male or female, it could be if you’ve got a partner who’s earning significantly more, they’re usually working longer hours, etc. then perhaps the lower earning partner contribute just as much by doing the lion’s share of housework or childcare, for example.

We start to talk through all of those sorts of things. We can put a value on housework as well. If you’re going out and doing this and that and if you’re ironing, how much would you charge for that per hour? If you’re going out and cleaning the house, how much would that cost per hour? So they start to see the value in the work they’re doing and gradually, you see that that huge gap becomes a lot less.


Emma Knights 
I’ve never even considered how you value the stuff that isn’t work and justify it to yourself as a lower earner. That’s really interesting to see that you could actually physically put a value on what you do, to help you kind of understand that you are equal in the relationship.


Deb Morgan 
Yeah, and it’s about creating that value again, it’s about subconsciously creating that link. ‘Well, if I’m doing all the ironing and if I’m doing all the cleaning and if I’m doing the cooking, if they were paying me to do this, I would be being paid X amount’. Normally I say £15 an hour, I think if I were to get a cleaner, if I was to get an ironing person, if I was to hire somebody to cook meals, how much would it cost?

Okay, if you go out and do that in a salaried position you’re not going to be earning £15 an hour, but to pay somebody to come into your home and do it, I think £15 an hour actually is quite low. But that’s a nice ballpark figure, and some couples will say ‘oh no, more than that’ but I always use £15 as the benchmark. We go from there and it’s surprising how, over the course of a week and then a month, that adds up.


Emma Knights 
That’s really good. Thank you.

Another scenario that jumped out to me was the impact that financial difficulties can have on our own relationships and not necessarily something that you both know about. Maybe one partner keeps something quiet and doesn’t say something to the other because they’re fearful of what they might have to say about it. So if you could explore that one a little bit for us, and tell us experiences you may have come across, that would be fantastic.


Deb Morgan
Mm hmm. That one’s really interesting, I see it a lot, actually.

What usually happens in that instance is I’m approached by one half of the couple, and they’ll say ‘we’re arguing, we’re having problems and I don’t understand why’. What’s happened, like I said earlier, is that something always presents as a symptom. And usually what the person tells me they want to deal with is never the issue in the relationship. It’s just a symptom of an underlying cause.

I will start talking to them about areas of their relationship. And it’s usually not long before we find out that there’s some issues around money and when I ask deeper questions, then they’ll say, ‘Well, actually, I’ve got a lot of debt I haven’t told my partner about. It’s getting really stressful because they keep asking me for money to go towards things or to go towards the bills or the house’.

I certainly recommend that most couples try and have some sort of equal contribution to the household pot in some form or another. So they’ll say ‘we were having these arguments because I can’t contribute any more they don’t understand why I can’t contribute any more when my salary is this or I’m bringing this much in. And we don’t know what’s causing the problem’. I’ll just say ‘have you told me about your debt?’
‘Why not?’
‘Because they’ll get mad’.

What I end up having to do is coach them into how to have a difficult conversation. Sometimes I will invite them to bring their partner to a session, we do face to face or via zoom, so they can have that conversation. Alternatively, I’ll give them a framework they can work with to enable them to have that conversation, and then put plans in place to deal with the debt.

Now, having done that myself in the past, I can give them a very basic framework. But what I always do is say, ‘look, I can give you this framework, work with this and start with it.’ It’s as basic as list down all of your debt, list down all of your income, list down all of your outgoings so you know exactly where you are.

It’s something I do whenever I work with a couple. We will look across all areas of their life and certainly in my main programme I say ‘right where are you right now in your relationship?’ I call it the get real stage. We do relationships, we do health and wellness, we do business and careers and, of course, we do finance. So we go through the same process for each area in my programme.

Once they’ve done that, it’s almost a huge sigh of relief. Very often people who are lying about their debt are also lying to themselves. When you can see exactly what you’re dealing with, then you can create a plan.

When we’ve got to that point, I will signpost them to various debt help agencies out there. Or I’ll say go and speak to financial advisors, such as yourselves. I know you don’t really focus on debt but with the Money Compass that you’re involved with, but that’s a really, really good way of dealing with money issues on a sort of not quite a forceful level, if you like.

So, I’ll always signpost them elsewhere once we’ve got to that ‘get real’ stage and they know what they’re dealing with. I’ll tell them ‘this is where you can go to sort that out’, but I always advocate have the conversation. Have the conversation with your partner, then have the conversation with your creditors.


Emma Knights 
So I was thinking about that in a bit more detail and I was also thinking about, again, a woman who may often do this to her husband. She may say ‘oh this top, this dress? Oh no, that’s been in my wardrobe for ages, it’ not new, I haven’t bought that.’ Secretly, of course, it is brand new, but they’re trying to hide that they’ve spent any money on it.

Would do you say things like that can stem into much bigger problems further down the line in a relationship?


Deb Morgan 
They can, and I work through part of that as well, actually, where we talk about a want versus a need.

If a couple or one individual within the couple has significant debt, I’ll ask ‘why are you still spending money on a new dress or a new lipstick?’ or whatever it might be. Again that’s usually a symptom that something else isn’t working for them.

We do a lot of work to understand what’s going wrong for them and what’s not working. Why are they spending money to fulfil something else? Because that’s usually what it is. Once we’ve established what that is, we can understand where it’s coming from and we can work on what the actual problem is.

Spending money and then hiding it from a partner is going to cause conflict because, ultimately, you’re lying to your partner and nobody wants to be lied to. And it’s almost like, you’re going to see this as a huge leap, if your partner came home and said to you, ‘no, I wasn’t out with another woman’ but then you find out that they were out with another woman, you feel absolutely lied to. It’s still a lie. Why should your partner, therefore, accept you lying over the amount of money you’re spending on an item of clothing?

When you’ve got debt it still has the same impact on the relationship, the partner still feels they can’t trust the other person. It comes down to trust. And whilst that was a very different example, underneath all of that is the trust being eroded. That’s what causes the problem in the relationship.


Emma Knights
I see. All of these things that we do are just signposts to that key root of the problem, which is actually is the thing that you’re dealing with.


Deb Morgan 

And there might be couples who go out and buy something and you might have spent a bit more on a dress than you wanted to, for example. Now if you have the money there generally, and you don’t have significant debt, and your partner says ‘oh that’s a nice dress, where did you get that?’ or ‘What did you spend that on that?’ They say ‘oh this old thing I’ve had it for a while’, as a one off, it’s not so bad, but that could become a habit.

Although, if I rewind all that back, I’m not saying that infidelity, as a one off is okay, I’m not saying that at all. But if you have the means to buy something, and you can have a laugh and a joke and say ‘oh this old thing.’ If it’s a one off, if it’s a laugh and a joke, you’re more likely to turn round to your partner and say, ‘yeah, this old thing I have this in the wardrobe for ages. No, actually I did go out, I spent £50 more than I planned to but it’s okay because I’ve got the money there.’ You can have that sort of conversation. It’s so much with language and in couples it’s all about the nuances, and that’s what I work on with them.


Emma Knights 
Fantastic. So the last scenario that I was thinking about is a couple, where one of them is a very keen saver that wants to put money away for a rainy day and wants to have a better future and is hard working and saving for that. The other partner will spend every single penny as soon as it touches their bank account or it’s in their pocket. They have to spend it.

How on earth would you go about bridging that gap in a relationship to help that couple?


Deb Morgan 
That’s a really interesting one. What I would try and do in that instance and it doesn’t always work, sometimes that’s just their pattern, and if it works for them on the whole then that’s great, but usually I will work with a couple and find out what their joint goals are. Maybe they want to go on holiday, or perhaps they want to buy a specific house or a better car or motorhome or something like that. I’ve had people come to me with all of those.

What are your joint goals? How can you work together to make this happen because it’s not fair to be solely dependent on the person who’s the saver. If you have joint goals and one person is saving and the other person isn’t, that’s not a joint goal. That’s a joint goal in as much as the person who’s not saving is saying ‘yeah I’m happy to go with that as long as they buy it’.

So we work out what joint goals are what each couple actually really wants it might be one wants a big house and the other actually wants a caravan. You don’t know. We look at where the compromise can be and we look at what each partner is happy to contribute to that.

If the one who’s not saving just is adamant ‘no, I’m not going to put anything towards it’ then they actually don’t get a say in what the person who is saving spends their money on. If the person who’s not saving wants a big house or wants a nice car, wants a decent holiday, then it’s having that conversation.

My job as a coach is to have a tough conversation and say, “why do you deserve that if you’re not prepared to contribute to it?” Not to say that the other partner, you can’t gift things to the partner who doesn’t save, but it’s not about bailing them out all the time. At some stage, if you want the nice things you have to take responsibility for getting them for yourself.

That kind of goes full circle back to the first scenario you gave me where one partner is earning significantly more than the other. Again, it’s not about each going in 50/50, it’s about saying, okay, I can contribute 75%. I can afford to contribute 25%. It’s about looking at who owns what, where the income and outgoings are, what they can afford to save, and actually taking it from there.

You look at what the goal is, look at what they need to save, work out who can save what and work out if, between them, they are able to save the amount they need to achieve that goal. If they can, fantastic! If not, or the one partner isn’t prepared to, then it’s about having a conversation, maybe you need to reconsider what your objective is or what your dreams are? Do we change that?

There are so many variables, so many conversations you can have around it. Hopefully this, in a nutshell, is giving you an idea of the sorts of conversations I would be having.


Emma Knights
You’ve mentioned several times in a couple of scenarios about equal contributions. And by the sounds of it it doesn’t necessarily need to be a monetary value. It’s about contributing what you can financially, but also making sure you’re committing and contributing to the same kind of goals and dreams.


Deb Morgan 
Exactly. And of course let’s not undervalue emotional support. If your partner is totally supportive for you when you’re going through a tough time, who’s there for you, who you can talk to, who puts their arms around you and says ‘it’s okay it’s going to be okay’. They don’t necessarily have the answers yet the value of emotional support is priceless.

So I look at all aspects of the relationship, and we put not such a monetary value, but I work with couples to help them understand that having an equal relationship isn’t always about having the same amounts of money.


Emma Knights 
Thank you. I’ve been really interested in everything you’ve had to say today and I’m sure our listeners have too! They might want to get in touch and ask you some more questions, or they might have a relationship they need some help with themselves. So, could you tell us how our listeners could get in touch with you and how you may be able to help them.


Deb Morgan 
Yes, certainly, contact me through my website which is, or you can find me on Facebook, I’ve got a group, a women’s group called Real Women, Real Life, Real Relationships, so I’d love to see you in there or look at the Not A Rehearsal page on Facebook as well. You can contact me through any of those means. I’m on other social media as well but I won’t bombard you with all of that right now.


Emma Knights 
Thank you. So, is there one top tip or key piece of information that you could leave with our listeners that may be able to help them with their relationship and money?


Deb Morgan 
Talk! Have the conversation. I know it’s hard, I know it’s difficult, but have that conversation because the more you talk, the more you can sort out. If you don’t want to have a conversation on your own, let me know and I can help.


Emma Knights 
So, being Your Recipe for Financial Success as well, they wouldn’t be right if I didn’t ask you just at the end here, what is your favourite recipe?


Deb Morgan 
Oh my goodness, I’m not a big cake eater so I had to think about this one. I’ve got lots of allergies, so I haven’t really eaten cake or biscuits or anything for many, many years. There is one cake I have made, in recent years which, if some of my friends know I’m making it, they beat a path to my front door. It’s a gluten and dairy free coffee cake and it’s absolutely stunning! I can read the recipe if you would like me to?


Emma Knights 
Go for it!


Deb Morgan
Okay, so you have 200 grammes of butter, 200 grammes of caster sugar, four eggs, 200 grammes of gluten free self-raising flour, although I use rice flour. Then you want three tablespoons of strong white coffee and 200 grammes of cream cheese. These days I use a vegan alternative because that doesn’t contain dairy or soya, and then you want some icing sugar for the top.

All you’re going to do is cream together the butter and sugar until it’s light and fluffy, then beat in the eggs one at a time, then beat in the flour and mix two spoons of the strong coffee that you’ve made up in a cup. Then what you want to do is divide the mixture between two oiled and lined 20 centimetre round baking tins.

Bake in a preheated oven for 20 to 25 minutes, and cool on a wire rack.

For the cream cheese filling, mix the cream cheese with some of the icing sugar and spread that in the middle, like a Victoria sandwich. Put the other layer on top, and then sprinkle the top either with icing sugar or caster sugar.

You can use some more coffee to create a coffee icing, if you like. Sometimes people will put walnuts on the top as well but I like it just as a coffee cake with a little bit of icing sugar on top. It’s absolutely stunning.


Emma Knights 
That sounds absolutely delicious and if it wasn’t so early in the morning, I’d be very tempted for a slice right now!


Deb Morgan 
I have been known to have a slice for breakfast in the past I have to be honest.


Emma Knights 
Very nice. I’ll make sure we get that recipe up on our website as well so we can share that with everybody.

That just leaves it for me to say thank you so much Deb, it’s been lovely to have you today! And I’m sure we will be speaking to you again in future.


Deb Morgan 
Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed being here.


Emma Knights 
And, with that, we’ve completed today’s recipe. We hope you have enjoyed following along.